Family Guild vs. Raiding Guild

[bellatrix]

What is the current state of Co9? Is it a family guild or a raiding guild? Over the past couple months I have asked myself these questions and I've rolled one way, then swayed the other. At the moment, my answer would be that Co9 is a raiding guild. Having said that, let me delve a little deeper.

I've been play MMORPGs for a long time (9 years and counting, if that is to be considered long which I think it is). I played Ultima Online for a couple years from 1997-1999 when I took up Everquest, 1999-2003. The last couple years have been spent with WoW, so I feel I can speak freely and competantly on the topic of guild relations and interactions having been in many guilds and unions; those which lasted years (with bonds existing to this day) and those that died a horrible, fiery death within months of conception.

A family guild is a guild that nurtures lower level players and bonds with people of equal level. Most of the time, a destination or specific drop or loot is not the reason for group; enjoying time with each other is the reason. A raiding guild, on the other hand, is a conglomerate of high levels whose main focus is high-end raiding for loot (thus eliminating the lower levels as by-product of growth). A family guild cannot be a raiding guild. It takes too many bodies to fill a raiding guild. Not everyone's personalities with mesh enough to consider them family.

As a High Lord in Co9, I have invited very few people because of a reticence to invite someone who would not connect with the people already in the guild. I've always been wary of people that would act up (focusing of loot as opposed to quality time spent adventuring in groups; focusing on what a guild can do for them, as opposed to helping other people which is the true essence of family) and thus tarnish the reputation that Co9 has had: being a ever-helpful collection of like minded people striving for fun and adventure in a family guild setting.

Yet, there seems to be a loot hording mentality that has come up over the past few months. Questions have turned from 'what can I do for Co9' into 'what can Co9 get for me', or some manner opf the two. Who doesn't want to have all epic gear? I do, most defiantely, but at what cost?

That is why UGoW is a great solution. UGoW offers guilds a chance to keep a close-knit core of people together while experiencing and reaping the benefit of high-end raid (MC, ZG, AQ, ect.) WITHOUT the need for mass indoctrination or inviting of people just to meet a population criteria to enter a upper-end zone as opposed to a personality compatibility. Yet, over the weeks, I've notice a need for Co9 to take matters into its own hands and raided AQ, which is admirable, but harkens the question: Is Co9 a raiding guild or a Family Guild.

I feel this topic needs to be discussed because if it is not, an implosion in eminent. So, I open the floor for debate. I do not care what your opinions are, just as long as you have one. The more we can get into the open, the more that we can recover or reveal. What is your opinion? Are you happy with the way Co9 is going or is there a different way that needs discussing?

Note: I am the moderator of this message board. Any flaming post will be deleted, so PLEASE feel free to state your honest opinion without fear of retaliation or scathing rebuttal, unless warranted and eloquently stated; preferrably without all caps and four letter words.

[Glaze]

Bellatrix I too have asked myself the questions you are asking. Unfortunately I dont have an answer to them, but I will gladly give my opinion.

What is the current state of Co9? Is it a family guild or a raiding guild?

I can tell you that I feel at home when I play Glaze. You are correct in the sense that it may seem/feel like a raiding guild, but I will say this-wether we raid or not everyone treats each other like a family.
Here is my story. I joined the guild not even knowing what a guild was, Glaze was in his 30's and roaming IF like all players do at one point or another. I asked over the general channel if any guilds were recruiting and I got two replies one from Decain and another from an officer from Guardians of Azeroth, after chatting with both for some time Decain won me over and I joined the guild. The guild was nothing big, but right away everyone was so friendly. That friendly atmosphere is what made me like the guild. To this day the guild still posses that same friendly atmosphere. For example, no matter how busy a person will be when someone new enters the guild the entire guild channel is filled with warm welcomes, you dont find that in a raid guild (just the other night I was in MC and someone new entered the guild, and I happend to be in the middle of tanking something but I didnt care and I still welcomed them...that doesnt happen in a raiding guild).

I feel I can speak freely and competantly on the topic of guild relations

My opinion on the matter is a bit sqewd because unlike you the only experience with guilds I have is that of Co9. On the other hand I have been part of many clubs and organizations throughout all my schooling. From my experiences in RL groups I have noticed that size has everything to do with the direct relations that occur amungst the members of that group. Take my fraternity for example we are a group of like-minded individuals with very similar goals ( much like that of Co9), yet with all are similarities we have many differences, main one being character. I think the majority of Co9 is out to attain the same goal and that is to have fun while questing the depths of Azeroth. That said, I would like to relate what has occured in the clubs I have participated in, the majority of them have reached points of tension through growth and development periods (in my opinion Co9 just hit a growth spur), it is up to the individuals in the group to choose the outcome of this tension. For example, in the case of my fraternity what occured was the creation of "clicks" (small groups of individuals within the bigger group) and with these clicks the only thing that came was more headache and bad times. The seperation of a group into small groups is never good because that is where favoratism stems from.

Yet, there seems to be a loot hording mentality that has come up over the past few months.

I strongly disagree with this comment. In regards to loot I personally have been reluctant to attend any of the UGoW raids for that particular reason. I think many members of the ugow alliance are loot hungry and as for Co9 I believe we dont care about the loot. Frankly I raid to have a good time with 40 other people, and yes loot is a concrete part of the raid process, but in opinion having and enjoyable raid superceeds any loot I can receive. As far as the Co9 raids go the ones that I have had the pleasure of participating in have been a pivital point in my gaming experiences. I have received so much joy out of seeing a group like us defeat a boss. There is no loot I can recieve that will make me happier than killing a boss with my guildies.

I am going to close my opinion with this--the answer to your questions lie amungst the lower level players. The ones we run through ZF/SM and aid in the completion of elite quests they cannot accomplish alone. That being said I encourage the lower level players to please provide some opinions on the matter.

[Bahnek Lagerbelly]

I am currently compiling my own thoughts on this very topic and will share them soon (just home for lunch and short on time)

In my opinion, this may very well be the most important thread that has appeared on these message boards. I would encourage each and every member of Council of Nine to share their honest feelings about the topic.

[Bahnek Lagerbelly]

I have a tendency to be very long winded when addressing an issue that is something I believe in passionately. Be forewarned… this is one of those issues. The opinions I offer are mine. They may, or may not, be those of the officers or Guild Master. I hope that they will find the time to address this thread with their thoughts.

I hope that you read the entire post but for those of you who will inevitably tire of my ramblings here is the really short version. I believe in a Family Guild that has a leadership and membership that is firmly dedicated to supporting ALL of its members to the best of its ability. I fear that while succeeding on some levels we have, or are beginning, to fail on others.

I too have many years of MMORPG gaming and guild experience having been involved in many worlds, on many levels, as member, officer, guild master, guild representative to alliances and so on. I have seen guilds rise and fall. I have seen them prosper under wonderful leadership, and I have seen them crumble as the visions, goals, and personalities of the members begin to clash. In my opinion Council of Nine currently rests at a pivotal intersection as a Guild. Decisions must be made, and made quickly, by the Guild Master and his officers as well as by all of our membership, each individually on a personal level, on how we are to proceed.

_________________

If we are to maintain, or regain, the Family Guild atmosphere we must have a Guild Leadership that truly believes in that path and they must be prepared to perhaps lose some members who will inevitably find more satisfaction in a Raiding Guild.

We must slow the growth of the guild immediately, allowing the members that have joined us in the past 2-3 months time to really integrate the active core membership. The bonds of friendship, fellowship, trust, and respect must be allowed to grow before any more growth in numbers can occur again. We have in the past allowed that time frame for those who were welcomed from other guilds. While some of those members soon departed, the majority stayed and Council of Nine became stronger because we allowed both the existing guild and the flood of newcomers time to adjust.

To maintain the integrity of the guild, those individuals who really are not representative of what we believe a Council of Nine member should be, should be removed. Failure to remove these individuals, by the Guild Master, will eventually lead to the disintegration of the “Family Guild”.

While the majority of the responsibility for maintaining the “Family Guild” atmosphere lies on the shoulders of each individual member, it is important for the Guild Leadership to constantly contribute, guide, and organize the guild in such a manner that all members, of all levels of experience, are made to feel welcome, important, and wanted. All members and leaders really have to set a good amount of time aside to supporting the other members of the guild in order for the atmosphere remain constant. Leadership in a “Family Guild”, in my opinion, needs to be far more attentive. It takes a great amount of attention to detail, members, and communication to lead a group of individuals that span level 1 to level 60 with a wide assortment of personalities and play styles. Even within a “Family Guild” there will be members with differing needs that need to be met in order to achieve a great gaming experience. What makes it fun for someone who is a casual gamer with a passion for role-play is vastly different than a member who plays many hours a week and loves to raid. Those members certainly can co-exist in a “Family Guild” as long as there is a balance maintained that allows each of them to enjoy their preferred style of play from time to time. As long as all individuals don’t become completely absorbed in playing solely for themselves, never participating with all the other players and things going on around them, then the balance has far more of chance to be maintained.

We need to take care of each other far more than we need to take care of ourselves in order to succeed. Success of a “Family Guild” is not measured by Fortune or Fame… it’s measured by the relationships you build and the great times you have with the terrific people that you surround yourself with.

Having said all that….

____________________

If we are to evolve to a “Raiding Guild”, the guild membership needs to be fully advised of the change of direction, vision, and goals of the guild. The Guild Master needs to ensure he has officers in place that are passionate about the direction. They must be prepared to lose members that have no interest in being part of a guild that sacrifices quality for quantity in its membership.

Changes to the charter would need to be made. Raid times and dates would need to be set. Raid rules would need to be established. Some sort of DKP system for looting would need to be implemented and participation expectations of the guild membership would need to be clearly established. Information access such as Raid Sign Ups and DKP standing would need to be implemented on the website. The leaders of the guild would need to dedicate much time to the logistics.

If my experience with other guilds, in other games, is any indication, this is how things will evolve: For Guild Leaders organization is going to be the key. Less time playing than communicating and organizing is usually the way it works. Be prepared for a lot more confrontation between members as competition for Epic Rewards becomes the ‘carrot on a stick’ that motivates the members to participate. Members better prepare themselves to be told when and where you can raid and who you can or cannot group with. It will eventually come down to a lot less freedom. Prepare yourselves to seeing favouritism and elitism as some members become expendable due to lack of gear or perceived substandard game play. Be prepared to be judged in all aspects of your game.

If you enjoy that kind of gaming day in and day out then you’re probably going to have a great experience. Personally I don’t mind raiding perhaps once or twice a week. That amount usually allows me to dodge most of the political crap that usually surrounds a Raiding Guild.

____________________

As stated at the beginning of this post, I believe in a ‘Family Guild’.

My greatest pleasure is derived from organizing things that will hopefully benefit other members and enhance the guild experience for them. I enjoy helping members of all levels with quests whenever possible. I’m not much for running new members through instances they could not manage with a group of their own, but certainly have helped out downing a particularly tough boss or two to complete some quests.

I continue to enjoy working on our website and managing the bank. It is something that helps me feel as though I'm really contributing to making the game better for all of the guild members.

One of the other things I feel very passionate about is the relationships we've built with our Alliances. A few of us have worked to give our members an avenue to raid at the upper levels should they choose to do so. As long as I am allowed to maintain my Guild Representative status, I will continue to actively maintain, and build, relationships within our United Guilds of Windrunner (UGOW) alliance. I am hoping that it will continue to strengthen the opportunities for Council of Nine to participate in, experience, and benefit from the High End instances while giving Council of Nine the opportunity to remain a "Family Guild". I really think it is important we not lose focus that Council of Nine began as a guild that was all about friendship, fellowship, and fun.

I am well aware that there are some who do not share my optimistic and passionate opinion on UGOW. I would encourage all Council of Nine members to familiarize themselves with the information that is available on the UGOW website and to participate in the discussions on their message boards.

If Council of Nine continues to move towards being a massive, completely self-contained, self-focused, raiding guild then there will be no need for alliances. In fact I doubt there will be little need for any single one of us individually… as long as at least 40 of us are on-line and on-time… all the time.

I would also, again, encourage each and every one of you to put forth your thoughts here on this forum... because you are all important to the future of this guild... and your voices must be heard.

Regards,

[braum]

There is absolutely no way that I could put my feelings on this subject any more clearly than Bahnek has stated in the post above. That also goes for Bellatrix (my roommate, with which much of this has been discussed for weeks), and most of what Glaze posted.
I will keep this very basic, due to the fact that when I try to focus on this subject in text, my head goes a million directions at once.
It is no secret that I am a big supporter of our guild alliance. This alliance affords everyone involved a great advantage over single hardcore raiding guilds.

*) We are able to maintain a friendly, family atmosphere and continue to do so in a fairly simple framework. After raiding a couple times during the weekend, we get to come back to our core/family of players and help each other out, do some BGs, or just goof off in IF if we choose to.
*) Once members hit level 60 there is an outlet that will allow them to see the upper end game without feeling they have to leave our guild to join a raiding guild, or burn out and quit the game all-together.

By being a part of this alliance we are able to enjoy the benefits of both worlds. And in time and with patience, we can maintain a close-knit family of well geared and super-knowledgeable players. Add to all of this the fact that we will make many friends that belong to other like-minded guilds that will aid us in our own endeavors. I would choose this ultra-quality family guild/alliance style over being an elitist raiding guild any day.

I appreciate the time and effort the raid leaders of UGOW put into running raids. Much like the appreciated efforts of Bahnek, Bellatrix, Willowweal, Quarnos and others that contribute to the Co9 website, guild bank and Team Speak, it takes selfless time out of the game to make the game more enjoyable for everyone else. I could spend alot of time going over it again and again, but I'm sure you know how I feel. Instead I would rather get to the main thing that has been burning me up.
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I think that a couple of people in our guild think that there are members of UGOW that are loot hungry. I have yet to see any instance that would make believe this. If anything I have seen a couple of things from our own guild that have made me wince a time or two. Before I get to these instances ill lay the ground work for how I feel the DKP system works, and why I think it is a positive loot distribution system, even when coupled with the tank reserve list.

First lets keep in mind that when we joined UGOW the DKP system was completely zeroed out. Many of the founders and existing members gave up their existing DKP. I never heard one of them fuss or argue about this.
With DKP, the more you attend and participate the better chance you have of getting geared up. Even with a tank reserve list, if you keep attending raids eventually you are going to get the drop you are looking for. As people in the raid get better gear the raid will be able to progress further into an instance. With MC it is important to have your main tanks in the best gear possible. I will bow out on an item any day if it means it will put us in a better position to progress further towards the goal. Basically the more you contribute the more you get out of it, but all in the name of helping the whole progress...Tomsgem, Smitez and other members of SB routinely make fire resist gear on their non-raid days for MC raids in hopes that it will help the group progress. Doesn't sound particularly greedy to me...
On the other hand: attending two, maybe three MC raids and then only when you know certain bosses are going down in order to get a particular drop, only to have someone out-bid you when it does drop (of course throwing a hissing in between) does sound a bit greedy. Routinely imploring that we do guild only raids so that "we can keep all the epics" does sound a bit greedy as well. And Ive seen that in the guild message of the day more than once.

It just seems odd to me that we started the AQ runs after another UGOW raid in which people were upset that damage meters didn't determine who the drop went to. I'm not the only person to notice this. When it is noticed by people that respect Co9, that are outside the guild it makes me cringe.

I think that doing AQ as a guild is a great idea, and is very positive and doable by all of our upper level members, we are awesome! But it pains me to know the motives driving the sudden urges. Yes we should do the runs and 20 man raids, but it is more important that we do it for the right reasons, and not to wave a flag, and thumb our noses at other people we may have beef with.

When we are doing these raids, why not invite members of UGOW to join with us; or run ZG and AQ at times that will not conflict with other raids that our members would like to sign up for and be a part of. It would surely make getting 20 people together to do a raid possible at almost any time of the week. We would even be able to stop guilt-tripping folks for not attending other raids. Just think of the "tells" it would save! It would spread good will and give something back to the other people that plan raids we enjoy attending.
Lets try to move with the current instead of against it.

I suppose that brings us back the question though...are we going to try to become a self sustained raiding guild, or continue to be a family guild that allows our level 60's to contribute to the UGOW alliance and yet still be there for the rest of our friends in the great Co9?

[Valkyree]

I've gone back and forth over this issue myself. So much so that even last night I was still vacillating over which type of guild I really wanted. Yes, I want to do higher instances. Yes, I want to maintain friendships. Can the two coexist? Honestly, I feel that what we have currently with UGOW is superior to what we hope to achieve by being self-contained. I'm sure this is selfish of me, but I have no desire to move backward. And if we continue to insist on guild only runs where we're taking hours to get set up, that's definitely a step backward.

Let's talk about loot: Yes, everyone wants to better themselves, but it's not the only reason we go. If you're actually walking away from any raid disappointed because you took down the boss but didn't get anything for yourself, you're doing something wrong. Yes, I want loot. But my primary goal is to have fun. Being told we aren't going to run ZG because the loot isn't as good is frustrating to me, because I suspect that truly isn't a generalization, but rather loot for a specific character or clique may not be as good.

Here's where what we have through UGOW is superior. I can schedule my attendance, or I can choose to pass on a raid if I'm just too tired or my time is limited without guilt. With UGOW, I don't show up intending to simply farm, quest or do a few BGs and get blindsided with an impromptu raid that I don't feel that I can decline as it might cause a hardship for others.

Hey... thanks for letting me get through that and decide what I want by deciding what I DON'T want. I don't want mandatory raids. I don't want my time dictated for me. I've been in guilds where if you're on, you'd better be at the raid or you get your hand slapped. It happens more than a couple of times and you need to start shopping for a new guild. Where is the fun in that?

[sekond]

I would first like to say that I do think this is a topic to be discussed in the guild. I would like to invite everyone in the guild to download Guild Event Manager (GEM)which can be found on curse-gaming.com. I would love to do more things with the guild, but don't see where people would like to go because things aren't posted in GEM. I would like to see this great tool utilized more often. There is no way for people to tell what quests others have unless we try to get a group together. If things are posted ahead of time with a few days warning, I think this would be accomplished easier. Please keep in mind that MC is running every Friday night at 6:30 ST and Saturday at 2:30 ST. This is a big deal to the higher level people and to try to schedule things around this.
Yes, everyone wants better gear, but this can be accomplished by 5 man groups for people still trying to attain lvl 60. I would love to and have helped out many members to work on elite quests in an area where they could not get a group together on their own. I do enjoy helping other players, but some people don't seem to understand why lvl 60's won't just drop everything to help out. I think this problem can somewhat be solved by using GEM.
I think we can be both be a family guild and a raiding guild, we just need to use the tools available to us. I love going to ZF, ST and wouldn't mind helping others out when I'm on and not in the middle of something else. I think many of us think along the same lines and have seen some good friendships grow within our guild.
Many of us also have lower level characters that have some of the same quests, so please get GEM and post where you would like to go and lets see what we can put together. Lets work as a team and get back to being a family guild as well as a raiding guild. Our most prevalent thoughts will push us in the direction we want to go.

I love this guild and please promote the website to others...we only have 58 people signed up as members to view these posts

Take care and see you IG.

Faithfully yours,
Sekond

[tanna]

I am very happy to see this topic being discussed. Thank you Bellatrix for starting this topic and allowing a constructive discussion. People a great deal more eloquent than myself have expressed well thought out opinions on this subject. I agree with most of what has been said above. Although, unfortunately I have been distracted as of late by real life concerns at work and I have had less time to spend online, I have been considering these same issues. As Braum pointed out a discussion like this can be disorganized as it can go in many different directions at once. I will attempt to stay on the main points.

First, I truly enjoy playing with the other members of this guild. We have some fantastic people and personalities. I do not expect all of us to see eye to eye on every issue. I do expect us to respect each other and our opinions. Overall this guild is superb at doing just that, basically treating others in a respectable way, which makes the guild a family and provides an enjoyable network of friends to experience this game. As a player that has to balance work, family, friends and even other hobbies with WOW, I prefer the family guild to the raiding guild concept. Different players have different balance points in the time and effort they can spend online. Personally my “balance point” changes depending on work schedule and when my wife is traveling. I play more when work is slow and when my wife is out of town and less when work is busy and my wife is here. (These are two separate issues I am not implying that my wife makes me work, … well not that much anyway ;-) I simply cannot be online as much as some of the other guild members. In my opinion the raiding guild sometimes forces an “unbalance” in the time spent online and often they are willing to sacrifice enjoyment for power. I think with patience we can attain a similar level of power as measured through epic items and rank and we can remain a “family” guild.

Second, personally I enjoy our alliance with UGOW as it has offered us a chance to do the high-end instances that I waited a seemingly endless time to do. I have not been able to participate as often as I would prefer but I have enjoyed every run I have made with them. That being said, I am all for CO9 growing to the point that we can run the high-end instances by ourselves, but I am not in a hurry to accomplish this. I think that steady, managed growth, nurturing lower level players, and staying a family guild will in time allow us to accomplish this goal. I would also like to see us remain in UGOW, and yes invite members of UGOW and other guilds to join us on our high-end runs. Even if we are able to do high-end instances ourselves, I see no reason to leave UGOW. The structure and organization they provide is a real benefit to our guild members. I too would love to have some epics but I have waited a long time and as long as I enjoy playing I can continue to wait. To summarize this point I would say that there is more power in our members as people than in any epic set found in the game. This is why I feel strongly that we remain a “family” guild.

My third point is that we have some members that thrive on competition and raiding. This is not a bad thing. My hats off to some of the amazing accomplishments of rank and items they have achieved. As a guild we should be very proud of these members. We should congratulate and recognize these accomplishments. As a guild we should provide a structure to help support their efforts. At the same time it is important that they recognize that not all of us can be as dedicated as they are. Each person has to find the balance that suites them. As a guild we need to make room for members of many different “balance points”

Lastly, I have noticed that our focus as a guild has been on the level 60’s as of late. To those members that are not level 60 yet I wish to point out that many of us have waited an extremely long time to participate in the end game instances. Up until recently we have been unable to go into anything except pick up groups. Pick up group generally fail in these instances for various reasons. That being said we have dropped the ball as far as helping out lower level members. It is not our job to “hold your hand” through every instance but it is our job to help you when you need it. It is also our job to help you organize runs with other members at your level. As a guild we need to respond better to the needs of our members that are not level 60 yet. I encourage everyone to get the Guild Event Manager and I encourage lower level members to organize runs through GEM. Please take notice when scheduling your runs what UGOW and other guild members are doing. Scheduling your low or medium level instance at the same time as MC will likely mean no high level people will be available to help you.

I hope what I have said makes sense. This guild has made this game far more enjoyable.

Thank you for taking the time to read through this post.

Sincerely

Tanna

[clarathor]

hmm this indeed is a serious matter that needs attending to.Well it has been a long time that i have been in this guild.And this is the only guild that i sticked with.Co9 broke my habbit of weekly changing of guild.I was like Glaze before i joined the Council.Then Decain talked to me about the guild and eventually won me over.And to tell you the truth guys.I have never felt i was left out or ignored when i joined Co9.I would rather call the council as Family coz to start off it made me feel im at home and with my family memeber when I play.And the loot issues.I dont play the game to have all the UBER loot.I play it for the love of the game and to spend time with the family..And Bahnek has a point.Why dont we minimize the growth of the council,so that other players can catch up with us.So all im asking guys is that lets keep the Family together.

[filch]

I too have much to say about this subject but off to work now. Will post later.

[filch]

My Fellow Guildies

I'm going to set Filch and the roleplaying aside for a few moments to expound on this subject as I too feel it is a very important one.

You should first understand that Dragore had to practically beg me play this game. I have years of gaming behind me but never adjusted well to MMORPG's (tried Ultima Online and hated it, tried Everyquest and was not impressed). I was very reluctant to try WoW, but Dragore insisted that I would enjoy it, so I did.

I'm grateful to my friend Dragore (a.k.a. Decain and a host of others) for being so persistant, as becoming part of the game and subsequently the guild has given me hours upon hours of entertainment as well as nutured quite a few new friends.

As many of you who have come to know my method of play understand, I am a roleplayer at heart. From my early AD&D days, I have always gravitated towards games that would allow character development and exploration. Fighting is fun, but I love making you folks laugh. I have just as much of a good time having Filch make up stories about slaying the evil baddie (with teeth like this VVVvvvVVV, no less) as I do actually going out and killing one.

Wow, moreover, the members of this Guild, has taken Filch into their hearts and by playing along with me has made this game a wonderful playing experience. It has certainly been the "family" atomosphere of the guild that has allowed me to develop and enjoy Filch. Were it NOT for that factor, I'm sure I would have taken my 30 days free trial and moved on.

So I thank each and every one of you for allowing me to be Filch.

I also have to say that as I was coming up in the ranks I had a great deal of help from my fellow guildies. Miramelle, Arabie, Braum, Tanna (to name a few) were always there for me in the early days whenever I needed it. There were others, however, who never help, even if I asked, and were quite frank in explaining that it wasn't to their advange (i.e, they would not gain ep) to help a low level character. But that was okay, because it was just their way of playing the game and I had plently of others to choose from. For the most part, I've always seen the Guild as a family guild, where most of the players enjoyed the comraderie of experiencing the game together, rather than trying to achieve Demi-god status individually.

Having said all that, I must admit that I too feel that the Guild has been moving in a different direction as of late. It does indeed seem that there is a steadily increasing list towards raiding.

Recently, I had a long discussion with one of our mid-level player/characters. He was VERY upset because he felt that those who had not reached level 60 were being overlooked when it came to questing and obtaining help. The message, it seemed to this person, and I have to agree for the most part, has not been "hey level 35 cleric what can the guild do to get you to level 36 tonight" but on guild raids. Who's going to them, when they're scheduled, what was done at the last one, who obtained what, who wants what, and so on.

At our meetings on Saturday nights I have found that we spend so much time trying to decide who is going to AQ that we often neglect to even inquire as to what another (lower level character) plans on doing after. I have even seen questions pertaining to another aspect of the game go unanswered. In the past, before the guild enjoyed as many level 60's as it does today, there seemed (in my opinion) more focus on what can we do as a group to quest and get to the next level. Now, I feel, there is more of an undertone of "get to level 60 and you can play with us". As a family guild..this isn't right. I belive that the future strength in our Guild lies in our youth and that we should all strive to assist those players who need our help to achieve maturity.

It is for this reason that I started F.A.S some time ago. In fact, if you read some of the old posts, you will see that Filch posted a notice inviting any and all guildies to seek his help if needed..any time. What initially started as a joke (I think between Filch and Braum) quickly became what I felt was a necessity because I DID feel that some of the lower level player/characters where being neglected.

Personally, I can tell you this. I have MORE fun going out with a small group of Guildies to a low level dungeon and seeing someone level than I do going out on a Raid to get the next great item. Do I want to have nice stuff? Of course I do. Do I want to get that Dagger of Decain's Bane..you betcha! I want to have lots of honor and enjoy revered status just like the next guy, but to me the fun is the process of achieving it..not necessarily actually having it. That's just me. I certainly don't expect all of you to feel and play that way.

But the question that Bella brings up is a valid one, and it seems that most of you who have posted agree is one that we must resolve.

Perhaps some of the doctrines of UGOW IS the answer as some of you have suggested. I've never UGOW'd so I can't really comment fairly on the matter, but maybe, FOR NOW, we should limit Raids to those scheduled by them. In the interim, we could all focus on giving more time to the lower and mid-level player/characters so that they too become 60's. Once our 60s have grown in numbers we can SCHEDULE our own raids like UGOW does by using GEM sign up.

Finally, I have to voice something else. After thinking about it, when it does come to Raiding and sharing the loot, I'm not too happy about the current rule that the strongest character gets the best item first. I see this as very unfair. If the purpose of the Raid is to get the most number of guild members to their maximum strenght would it not make more sense to follow the same rules that we do in ALL other instances??? That is, anyone who NEEDS it and for whom it is an upgrade gets to roll for it. To give all the top items to the strongest characters is like giving tax breaks to the rich, is it not?

Alternatively, I also like the idea of DKP's and find that more equitable then just the bigger guy automatically gets the item. In fact, I would suggest a system of DKP's for those who do help other players level and accomplish tasks. Much like how honor is given out in the game for accomplishing a task for a faction. This way there would be something gained for the 60 who helps the 45 level AND for the 45 who helps the 30. Don't ask me how we would keep track of this and accurately record it...I'll leave that to the Bah's and Q's of the realm to figure out.

So lets figure it out folks. Cause I love this game..and I love this Guild. I would love to pass those same feelings on to ALL the members of the Guild. I really get a great kick out of playing with each and every one of you and always look forward to our next time together.

I remain,

The Great and Powerful Filchini

[condor]

I am with you on that one Oh Great Filch!!Lets do something about our fellow family members who needs our support.And For sure Clarathor and Condor would be able to help all the time.And one suggestion,everytime that we higher lvls go in an instance and if a good item drops,instead of Auctioning it,why dont we just send it in the guild bank.And this includes the set items that is no BoP.

[annemarie]

I would like to add my two cents to the table as well. I think many before have said it as well as can be said, i game for the fun of it. For me the high end instances are my way of going with my guildmates and doing something i couldn't have done on my own. The loot is just secondary, i believe that without fostering the lower level characters it wouldn't be as much fun. I want to be able to enjoy the experience. I would be happy to forgo that raids to help the lower lvl's advance, this so far has been my only outlet for the higher end instances. I will have to figure out GEM and see if i can schedule sometime to do raids as Sekond mentioned. I have limited game time as probably most of us do and that would be a great tool for me. I guess i ramble some, but the bottom line is, i would rather do PUG's in the highend instances than get into a guild that the only focus is the loot.

[shandar]

I just have to say it is about time this is addressed, As for me im a family guild person as opposed to a raiding guild. When i first joined this guild, i was treated so warmly and i really felt like i belonged with this guild. I want to say how nice it was to have difficulty leveling and someone was there to show you what you were doing wrong or how to get there.

The real world is very difficult these days so it is very nice to play a game with people all over the world and feel like you have known them forever.
People helping people just because, that doesnt happen in the real world so its nice to see on this game.
Ive noticed lately i dont even know half the people and most dont respond when you say hi.
This guild has went from a helping guild to what a person can get not how can i help.
I have also noticed its very difficult to get people together to do stuff. meaning going into dungeons together or helping with quests.
IM very sad that the quild has went this way and i must decline from this raid infested quild.
Thank you so much Filch for making me laugh, HellBilly, Shadowviper, Freezerburn for all the help and tips and for caring so much.
Thank you Quarnos, Valkyree, Braum, Bellatrix etc I want to say thankyou for all your help and kind words and it was very nice to know you and play with you.
There are endless players to thank and I apologize if i missed anyone.
Bahnek Thank you for all you have done, inviting me into the quild, making the guild so friendly, and helping me so much.
It was nice, but not for me no longer. I may see you in my travels some time so if we meet again lets make sure we stop and catch up.

[Docspock]

Seeing as I'm a junior member of the guild I am taking a lot of interest in this topic. This decision will have ramifications on Doc's future and I would prefer to say something rather than accept my fate in silence.

One of the main reasons I joined this guild was because a buddy asked me to join. He doesn't play much anymore because the guild "never did any raiding" and at the time that was true, but not any longer. I chose to stay when he quit playing because I liked how the guild was run and I saw on the horizon the potential for new content. Lately I have worked on Doc more and more because Co9 has been doing much more raiding. I am excited by the prospect of raiding end content not just because of the loot but because there are new areas that I cannot see on my own.

What is the main purpose of helping lowbies move up? So that they can gain exp, gain levels and gain gear to help the guild move to new levels. Eventually as you bring them up they too will want to move to raiding and new levels of content in turn helping the guild and paying back the attention given early on. As more and more hit 60 the natural progression is to move to high end content. High end content demands more time which leaves less time for lowbies.

It is common for guilds to naturally evolve to a raiding focus as you get more and more 60s. They have to or risk losing members who get bored or long for new content. Some in the guild have embraced the raiding content and don’t have time or a desire for nurturing. They have already paid their dues so to speak.

This is where the transition occurs. I sit and read the guild chat about the guild only raids and have watched raids not happen simply because there was a desire to keep it guild only. I have volunteered my 60 mage only to be turned down because that toon is not in the guild. I find it interesting that it isn't about the people playing the toon it’s about if the toon is in the guild and yet we are having this discussion. That position can be both a beneficial and narrow approach for the guild and screams "raiding" guild more than family guild. Keeping loot in the guild is critical to some not the person behind the toon.

I personally have never experienced the "family" of this guild. I have asked for help only to get silence or the promise of help that never comes. I have offered help only to be turned down because my other toon is not in the guild and then watch the raid not happen because of a lack of interest. The reason I don’t move my other toons is because of this lack of family. They are in a “family” guild now and I cannot bring myself to leave those friends for a guild that I have none.

I guess my main point is that from my perspective this is already a raiding guild, and is being run as a raiding guild. The family aspect is reserved for those who are already friends or are already 60. The problem lies not with new members but those of us that were caught in the middle of the transition, those of us that are not part of the core. Do we want the raiding or the family? I personally want the raiding as I never got the family attention to begin with. As I move to 60 and can start to contribute to the guild at its current level I will hopefully become part of the core and the "family" atmosphere that will come with that membership. I do not expect level 60s to lower their own game experience simply to help me reach lvl 60.


My two cents.

Doc