mix
New Member
"Don't drive angry..."
Posts: 19
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Post by mix on Aug 27, 2006 21:05:32 GMT -5
Let me say that i appreciate all the comments, but I have little time to play and even less time to write (and no time to read).
I did read all the posts so far, and the one that rings most true to my beliefs is Braums post.
I will not expound endlessly on the topic (as most of you have already done), but wish to simply say that I wish the guild to return to it's "family" focus and yet remain UGOW members.
I think it is possible, as expressed in Braum's post so eloquently.
Thanx, and good luck to us all.
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Post by dragore on Aug 27, 2006 21:11:46 GMT -5
Wow! And I am not talking about World of Warcraft but wow (i.e. Dang, whew, surprise, holy Moses, man! etc.). I am not the most eloquent writer in the world and at this moment probably not in the best frame of mind to be even if I were . . . First of all I believe some of the comments listed here are slanderous, accusatory and pointed at certain people not mentioned including myself. I will not do that nor retort to such crap in this forum for all to read. I wish I could say that I enjoyed reading some of these posts but for many I did not! It makes me sad, angry and a little dumbfounded at the level of drama on this topic. While I do not disagree that this topic can be discussed, I do not favor the way in which this has evolved. I have not had any Members, Veterans, High Lords, Founders or even Officers come to me privately and speak about concerns such as this with the single exception of one instance that had to do with a more global issue and that person and I have had personal emails and whispers between us discussing many topics including this one but on a smaller, less volatile and more friendly exchange. Let me begin with a reminder – I started this guild for one reason to see like-minded people get together and play the game. I started the guild with 9 other Founders who were personal friends or family members of mine such as Filch, Arabie, Norbin, Baalann, etc. Some of which are still playing and some not for RL reasons or because they are too busy with other games or lives. Early on this Guild grew from 20 players to 50 very slowly with many of our excellent players still in the Guild such as Braum, Bahnek, Tanna, Brunis (though Erring left to a so-called raiding guild), Willow among others. We merged with two guilds – one stunk terribly and one was great and gave us more great players and people such as Sekond, Shadow, Demaris and Valk to name a few! During that period we changed somewhat. That is bound to happen when you more than double your membership. Now that we are almost 250 members strong (but in reality 130 plus or minus accounts which is the most important stat as that measures actual players), we are changing in even a more dramatic way. It is inevitable. I would imagine that I am not the only one who has experienced being in a RL job that involves a small company that grows to large proportions. The company has no alternative but to change with that growth or it will implode. A large company needs (actually requires) more structure, more hierarchy and becomes less “intimate.” This is not to say that the same company cannot keep some of its roots. But that is truly very difficult to accomplish as it matures and evolves. That said this is NOT a company. It is a guild in a great game that has seen many, many friendships grow and prosper. This is not a company that requires an exhausting hierarchy, web pages of rules and endless meetings to determine that we should use the next great mod for our Mages (or whatever class) in the next raid. This is not a company that is paying an hourly wage or salary to any member to play, be involved or act on its behalf. We are playing a game! This is supposed to be fun. This topic and reading some of these posts is not fun (for me at least). Are there some constructive comments in some of these? Yes there are. I believe some comments were heart-felt, genuine and careful thought out and others were not. Others were (pardon the term) a b*tch session or a way to throw barbs at some players or me. I can accept that some people do not agree with all my decisions as Guildmaster, that comes with the territory in this game, as a boss in RL or as a family member in RL. I have made mistakes as a person in life, in work and in the game as Guildmaster and unfortunately will continue to do so – none of us are perfect including me. However it is from those mistakes that we all learn. However my intentions for this Guild has not altered from day one and that is to see an organized group play together and have fun with the game they enjoy to spend time (and oodles of money to Blizzard’s coffers to which I have not only contributed for many accounts in my family but also persuaded MANY friends to play this game). I speak with great pride about this game and our Guild to many people! When you have a group of our size we will never satisfy everyone! I know that and so should all of you. I would like to see the majority be satisfied and that is my goal. The whole question whether the Guild is a “Family-Guild” or a “Raiding Guild” really bothers me. We are neither. We are certainly NOT a raiding guild like ED, TCT, or others. No way. We are also not a family-guild either as my family only comprises two accounts now -- Baalaan and me. We ARE however a family-oriented guild. Semantics it may be, but truth is in the definition. A family-oriented guild is one that promotes good values and being kind to others; does not allow inappropriate behavior; promotes goodwill and encourages its members both high level and low level. I am sure at times I do not live by all of those rules myself as I get caught up in the game and pursuit of my character and for that I apologize. However my intention is for the pursuit of a family-oriented Guild. I take serious offense to mentions that that we are loot-greedy or loot-minded as a guild either in part or in whole. As many have scribed in some posts here, do I personally want all the great epic loot for my character(s)? Heck yeah! But in all the AQ and UBRS (for example) runs I have been in, it was clear that the vast majority of the participants were genuinely pleased and happy for a member who got something they needed or was looking for. I, as well as others, probably can’t count the endless Baron, Scholo or UBRS runs we all did to help others get what they needed. I have also been the recipient of those runs with such gracious players such as Bama, Braum, Sekond, Bah, Quarnos, Cali and MANY others for those blasted Valor Boots for Grimock! How many times did we kill Kirtonos? LOL There may be an occasional member who showed some displeasure about not getting something or being out-rolled but all in all we are all happy for each other when they get something important for their character or class. I know I am! Why do you think I would like to see CON do runs with guild members? So our guild members get the equipment they need. Call it selfish if you like . . . I call it caring for our own! I could ramble on for much longer but I will close with some plans to see these issues aired and possibly rectified; though I not sure there is a “true” fix for this but maybe better communication and direction is in order for sure. I will leave you with one very important comment – This Guild is what we ALL make of it! Try not to make it something that YOU want, let players play their own way and do not disparage or scold those players that don’t raid, don’t wanna help lower levels with their 60’s or need help with their lower level characters. The last thing on Azeroth I want to see is this Guild crumble or lose great players and people. Look in the mirror and try not to make this issue into something that will harm the Guild or its members. Furthermore I will not comment on UGOW in this post or forum as I personally have issues, right or wrong with the Alliance, and therefore do not feel comfortable commenting on them at this time. I see both positive and negative in our pursuit of this alliance but that may be my opinion only and also be a narrow-minded one I must admit! 1) First and foremost I would like to call a meeting on TS with all Officers and High Lords (though Founders are also welcome but really only consist of Filch at this stage) take place after this week’s next meeting – we do not need to perform a run afterward, this is obviously more important. If you have something to say about this issue, then you should strive to be there. Leave egos at the door please . . . 2) Until further notice I will not nor should any High Lord, Founder or Officer elect to invite any new members into the Guild until we iron out these issues. CON will be closed to any new (non-alt) members. I would rather not turn off the “invite” privilege for all Founders, High Lords and especially Officers as that is unnecessary in a guild with mature, respectful people. 3) Lighten up people! LOL seriously this is not doom and gloom for god’s sake! We may have some difference of opinions on this subject, but we are for the most part all friends here. I certainly view everyone who has posted in this thread as a friend seriously! Though I may not agree with some of the verbiage and what was said, some of it is out of emotion like mine in the beginning , and we all need to understand that. Take a breath, relax, and let’s come together all of us and make our Guild a fresh place not one burdened with turmoil. That is not why we’re all here!!
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Post by dragore on Aug 28, 2006 9:39:09 GMT -5
Whoops I totally forgot to mention Nobles when mentioning inviting new members. Sorry to forget you Nobles it was not intentional! Please all Nobles also follow same rules for High Lords, Founders and Officers with regard to NOT inviting new members. Thank you.
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bama
New Member
Posts: 4
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Post by bama on Aug 28, 2006 16:40:14 GMT -5
I've been AFC (away from computer), and this is my first chance to read the posts. I, for one, am very happy to see that this has been brought up for discussion. Judging from the number of comments and replies, it is obvious to me that quite a few of us feel the importance of this issue.
As a full-time student now, my time for playing WoW has become greatly reduced (I'm not too happy about it lol). I have to think about what Council of Nine means to me now, and what it meant to me when I joined. I had taken two different characters into their fifties (Eerie, my main, was 58. Bama was 55), never ONCE thinking about even trying a guild. I wanted to do it all on my own, didn't want the heirarchy and headache of a guild. Now looking back on it, I see that I was being close-minded and opinionated. I hated guilds, but I had never been in one. As time went by, and I got closer and closer to 60, I found that PUG's were getting really awful. I used to find a bad one here or there, now I couldn't get a good one to save my life. Eerie was level 58 before I even STARTED Bama, and Bama was 55 before I played Eerie again. High end PUGs can be a nightmare. Suddenly, the thought of joining a guild wasn't sounding that bad. The only reason I picked Co9 over any other guild (Decain, you'll appreciate this) was because it had the coolest name on the server. I mean c'mon...Council of Nine...perfect! And I love Greek mythology too. So this guy named Tanna decides to give me a shot, and the next thing I know I've got two level 60's and a whole boatload of new friends. I was at the point of quitting the game completely, until I found these good people. It totally, thoroughly, completely changed my gaming experience. WoW used to be me sitting in silence at my computer, now it was talking with real people and making real friends. I would like to take a second and thank those first few critical people: Tanna for the invite (of course). Bahnek, Cali, Q, and Willow...my first guild run in ST with Bama. You made me feel welcome in a way that still lives on.
I'm not sure that we can ever make everyone happy here. The person who hits it most on the mark on every point was Braum, in my opinion. I believe that our continued participation in UGOW is the ONLY way that we are going to be able to achieve higher end content for some players, and at the same time maintain a comfortable, smaller, friendlier guild for all. And kudos to Decain for making a bold move (and a good one)....no more invites! We need to work with what we've got, and foster a better guild environment. What brought me here and kept me here was the concentrated efforts of a core group of people. That core group is now the minority in this guild. Filch's idea of an honor system for helping lower level guildes is pure genius (of course I expected nothing less). I'm not sure we could ever track it easily, but maybe we can just keep track on our own (I just helped myself out...now how can I help someone else?).
Should a level 60 be welcomed and favored over a level 40 who has been grinding away with us for a month, with nary a peep from the high end players?
We need to take a pause and remember that we all got here by helping each other out. I think the AQ and ZG runs are a great idea, but maybe just a step ahead of where we are at. I wasted hours waiting for 20 man raids that never happened, because it had to be "guild only". It's not the guild only part I mind (I think that's the best way to go, if possible). Let's do UBRS maybe, or a couple of BRD/Strat/Scholo runs instead. Don't make 17 people scratch their butts waiting on something that may or may not happen. Everyone's game time is valuable...let's put it to better use. We could attune people for MC, finish Epic mount quests, get recipes...etc, etc. Waiting on 20 man stuff seems like we are getting a little ahead of ourselves. The real answer is a 15 man raid, but unfortunately we are kind of stuck in a middle ground. I believe our time would be better spent running multiple groups for other needed things.
Okay, I think I have vented enough on the subject. Does the question remain unanswered, Family vs. Raiding? I believe that each person has to find the answer to that question on their own, and be comfortable with any decision that they feel they need to make because of it. The answer that I feel works the best for me is to slow it down. Maintain alliances that allow the freedom that all of us desire. Do everything that we can to make our guild our home....our cozy little cabin that we come back to after battling the demons and monsters of the big, bad world. I could be in a guild that lives that battling lifestyle. I choose to do something different. To recap:
1. Maintain alliances
2. Stay small and friendly
3. Never forget what it was like to get to 60
My greatest thanks to all of you have been there for me. Co9 rules!
Bama
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filch
New Member
Posts: 27
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Post by filch on Aug 29, 2006 0:59:09 GMT -5
Greetings and Salutations!
It is I...The Great and Powerful Filchini! Not that whining, sniveling player that thinks he controls the likes of me!
I have no intention in boring any of yee with long disortat...distort...ah...long speeches...on this subject. For as you all know, I am both short in stature and talking.
Instead I have searched through me very own notes and found, buried at the bottom of the Guild Charter these very good words which I believe says it all:
GUILD MOTTO
Adventuring upon the paths of the Windrunner server, the Council of Nine is a well established, Alliance aligned, World of WarCraft guild. Our members are each responsible for the quality of our guild through skilled, cooperative, and friendly play. We work together to accomplish guild and faction goals, run and participate in raids large and small, team up for group PvP, or help individual guild members achieve personal goals. Above all, we have fun!
As I recall, the Guild members themselves wrote these words...perhaps they forgot where they left em!
I remain,
The Great and Powerful Filchini
(P.S. The King Heself wanted to offer his two soverigns on this subject. I told him I had it all under control)
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braum
New Member
Posts: 7
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Post by braum on Aug 29, 2006 14:00:42 GMT -5
Excellent work Filch! That is a super find. Im glad that you keep so many notes tucked away for such timely moments! ;D. It is nicely written, and rings true to the core. F.A.S. is a perfect example of the good things in Azeroth.
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Post by quarnos on Aug 29, 2006 23:30:28 GMT -5
Although a part of me wishes I had seen this thread earlier to voice my opinion, another part of me is somewhat glad I was out of town this weekend and unable to see it until now.
First, I have to say I agree that there has been much tension on the subject as of late. I'm not going to get into any of my personal feelings on the matter, however, instead I do feel that it would be good to offer up some observations I have made.
First, everyone knows I am a huge proponent of the UGOW alliance. I feel that this is a good way for those that want to attempt the higher level instances to do so. I personally enjoy them very much and will continue to do so. Observation: There are others in the guild that would like to join in the fun of the higher level instances, and unfortunately there are only a limited number of spots spread across several guilds. While I understand the frustration of those that have been unable to get in from week to week, I also understand the goal of UGOW, which is to get to the point where we have multiple raids going to all of these instances and can accomodate everyone. The unfortunate part of that, is that it takes time to get enough players experienced enough to lead these new raids, and while we are almost there for Molten Core, there is still work to be done. We are not the only guild with these complaints and they are being addressed as we speak. As with the process of getting a character to lvl 60, you have to have patience and tenacity to accomplish the goal. In essence UGOW is going through the same struggle as getting to 60, except trying to make it possible for a VERY large number of 60's to do end-game runs. On this particular subject, I would submit to all of you, that you have all had to try over and over again for a piece of gear, or grind your butt off for a level. If you want to do these instances before there are multiple raids, sign up often and sign up early. Contrary to the belief of some, Damagemeters are not used to determine who goes beyond the core group. People are taken in the order that they signed up, and there is a date and time stamp when they do. If anyone tells you differently, they are lying to you.
I do want to make one other observation on the subject of UGOW, but, it has to do with some of our players. There are a couple of us that have worked our butts off to be part of the core team, and will be part of the ones that split to lead additional MC raids. NONE of us are any better than any of the others in our guild. Personally, I will have an issue with any one of us that uses the core team to make themselves feel superior to any of our other 60's. We were chosen not only on our abliity to play our characters, but, primarily due to attendance when this all started and nobody wanted to go.
The one observation I would like share about our guild, and our guild alone. Filch was kind enough to post our guild charter in a previous post, and Filchy thanks brother for that. It seems that many have forgotten that this guild was formed to support people no matter what they want to do. Everyone is going to play their character differently than another. Take myself for example, I have created the all illusive DPS pally that nobody thought could exist. And no matter what anyone tells me, I won't change him, or how I play. To be honest, I don't think anyone would want me to anymore. Those that are lvl 60 and think that they are at the top of their class need to remember that no matter how good you think you are, you are not behind the keyboard of another player's character and you never will be. Do them and your own reputation a favor, and give advice if asked, but, don't yell at them if you think you can do it better. These are the kinds of things that are starting to get people at each other's throats. From the flip side, if you can't stand someone like that, I have created multiple rooms in the new TS server. Change channels for crying out loud, and follow suit with some others in the guild and don't group with them. Your enjoyment of the game is your responsiblility, not anyone elses, including Decain. All of us will help when we can, but, by the same token, we also are players and have goals of our own. No matter what their position in the guild is, we are all on limited time. I for example have found lately that I really enjoy BG, and am getting VERY close to being able to get some good gear as a reward for my efforts. For those that don't do BG, that means keeping up with it. Unlike XP when you are leveling, you have to keep going or you go backwards. I choose not to do that, and as such, my time has been more and more limited. I am sorry to those that wanted me to do runs when I really needed to get more honor to keep going up, but, I work a lot and have to do it when I can. What's being argued about most in the guild lately is who gets noticed and who doesn't, and I think it's silly. We are all important in our own way. If you are thinking that you deserve a promotion in the guild, and aren't getting it, think about asking Decain or one of the officers about it. There are over 250 char in our guild and there is no way that they can notice everyone. Take some responsibility for your own game experience and ask when you might be able to get promoted. Help them rather than harp at them because they had other things to do.
I love everyone in the guild, and am glad to see you all here. I think that it has been largely overlooked in this discussion, however, that we are all real people with real personalities that may or may not get along with EVERYONE in the guild. This is human nature, and it will not change. Find those in the guild that are like minded with yourself, and have fun with them. Don't berate others because they aren't like you, or have other interests than you do. Azeroth is a big place, and like the real world, we all have our favorite places and activities. Let your fellow guildies enjoy what they enjoy, and revel with them in their successes. Don't focus on failures, or everything will appear that way to you.
See you all on Sat. and happy hunting.
Quarnos
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itar
Full Member
"If the tank isnt happy, your just plain screwed"
Posts: 105
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Post by itar on Aug 30, 2006 8:45:33 GMT -5
This is my first MMORPG so i do not have as much knowlage as others in this area. This arugment over wether our guild is a raiding guild or Family Guild Distresses me greatly which is why i have waited so long to post my opinion. I have not experienced UGOW yet so i will not attempt to comment on what i do not know. My experience in CO9 so far is a very pleasent one. Over time i have formed friendships with people in the guild and hope that they consider me a friend as well. Some of the funest times i have had in an instance have been with fellow CO9 Guildies. Pugs can be fun but in my opinion Instances are even funner with Guildmates. My opinion on the matter is this:
No matter what our guild does PVP,PVE, RAIDS, etc .We should be a guild where people can come for help. Where people can chat with eachother without fear of Critisim. A guild where people feel like family no matter what hobbie in game they like to do the most. What i'm getting at is we should not be the type of guild to label ourselves "PVP GUILD" or "RAIDING GUILD" or some other type of name. But a guild where we can say "you need help with that sure i'll be right there". We should not be defined in game by what our guild does the most. We should be renowned in game for the help and encourgment that we give our fellow guildmates.
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Post by demaris on Sept 18, 2006 14:41:30 GMT -5
Well said Itar, we should be first and formost a guild of friends. What we do becomes secondary to what we are. All of you are my friends and as such we should all respect each other and our choices, many days I feel like PvP, somedays end game raids...and many times I actually look for somebody that I can run Dead mines with, or SM...but I like doing those things with my friends, my guildmates.
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Post by quarnos on Sept 18, 2006 14:51:29 GMT -5
Well said Demaris. I would also like to add, that as the dust from this thread is finally starting to settle, there are a couple of things that I would like to see everyone keep in mind.
1. We will never be able to choose a direction for the guild that will make every single person 100% happy with the direction of the guild. There will always be at least one person that would like to see us do something different as a guild, and it will never be humanly possible to meet every single need.
2. Bearing number 1 in mind. If all of us remain true to our friendship with each other, the little things just don't matter that much. All of you are very dear to me, and I would hate to see any of you not having fun. I truly belive that if everyone concentrates more on the relationships with others, that much of the other discussions about dissention, unhappiness, or the latest one I've heard - political issues, won't be issues at all. Losing sight of our friendships is what causes us to lose sight of what's important when we are all online. In my opinion, what's important when we are all online is to have fun. After all, it is a game.
See you all in game,
Quarnos
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Post by granite on Sept 20, 2006 11:45:41 GMT -5
this is my short-winded two cents...
i think teh arrangement we have with UGOW is pure GENIOUS and I think it should continue as such, we have good family-guild-ness going with CO9 and can get the 'lets PWN the #*^$ outta lvl ?? elites' feeling from the UGOW raids, hence mixing the best of both worlds without limiting either one...
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